LOTRO Players News Episode 20: Beta Battles

10 comments

1. 

   Braxwolf / November 11, 2013

   Is that music I hear? Oh, we’re big time, now! Thanks, Achazia!

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     Andang / November 11, 2013

     Ha! Indeed!

     Reply
2. 

   Kaleigh Starshine / November 11, 2013

   Great show as always!

   Most of the things you all spoke about, regarding the beauty of the Westemnet and such, I wholeheartedly agree with. It amazes me every day, when I go about taking my renderings for the tale I am spinning here, just how beautiful these lands are, even after all this time.

   I did not spend much time overland questing in the beta, but I hear the stories are excellent, better than those of the Eastemnet, and that is quite a statement.

   Having played the Burglar (Scout!) and the Captain almost exclusively, I wanted to comment on the discussion about those two classes and, overall, which class may be in the poorest state with the coming changes.

   This deals exclusively with the group context. Viability is not a concern in the solo context, of course. Each one of us can go at our own pace, are free to choose whatever trait line and options we like without being concerned about making ourselves too weak, and enjoy it however we like. And rightly so, of course! I imagine every class could make it through the overland questing without even choosing a specialization and going just with the handful of basic skills.

   Within the group context, I think the coming changes are such that they pretty much relegate Scouts to a Solo and PvP class, with no viability in the group context.

   Why?

   Well, with the latest build, Rockx has felt he needed to go to the extreme of making every single Burglar skill ‘Fast’. Obviously, there are weaknesses within the engine itself, and the very core of the class design, which are proving too difficult to balance Scouts within the current context, and that context has changed dramatically over the years.

   Scouts were meant to crack the tough nuts of these lands, through good single-target damage and abilities to aid others in the same, and to help their fellowships with fellowship maneuvers. And, in the lands of Angmar and Moria, those skills were useful, the context suitable to that role.

   But as time has moved on, the context of these lands has changed. Fellowship maneuvers have not grown with our abilities, and they are now tools of the Enemy, luring Free-folk into inaction while being beat upon by their foes for negligible gains. I was with a group that performed Tramp of Doom the other day. The creature we performed it on lost 5,000 Morale during that time, but the manoeuver actually did less than that, due to the bleeds that were ticking while we were paused that also were hurting it. Needless to say, most every class can do that much damage in a single strike these days, and in some cases three times that.

   And, in these lands, we now face large mobs of foes that threaten to overrun us. Five, ten, twenty, forty all at once, and the Scout can only deal with them one at a time. Our inefficiency in this regard has never been cast in more stark relief than in this moment.

   Since the passes into the Eastemnet opened 14 months ago, I have not been able to get an invite to a 3-person adventure as a Scout from within the glyphs [GLFF :)]. Not a single one.

   This is due to our inefficiency within the current context. The calls in the glyphs (GLFF) for such groups:

   Looking for AoE DPS!
   Looking for Ranged DPS!
   Looking for Tactical DPS!

   …eliminate virtually all opportunities for us to take part in group play these days. There simply is no place for someone who can only deal with one foe at a time, when we now face foes a dozen at a time, give or take. And with the content having been made so easy, there are no more tough nuts for Scouts to crack.

   It is my contention that the coming changes will greatly exacerbate this condition, to the point where it is probably time for Scouts to retire from group play. And this will be even more true for Epic Battles than normal instances.

   Why?

   First, for normal instances:

   – There are many more classes viable for filling the DPS role now, due to these changes. More importantly, there are many more able to contribute AoE DPS. Guardians, Loremasters and many other classes have gained AoE damage lines. There will be far greater competition for those spots now, and we Scouts have precious little to offer.

   – The ability to change Trait Lines within instances greatly helps classes with distinct trait lines, thus weakening classes that do not. The Burglar is, by far, the class that has the least distinctive trait lines:

   The Quiet Knife does single target damage, some crowd control and debuffing.

   The MIschief Maker does lower single target damage, more crowd control and debuffing.

   The Gambler does single target damage, some crowd control and debuffing, merely in a unique way.

   Each line does pretty much the same thing.

   As a point of comparison, consider the Champion:

   The Martial Champion allows for incredible tanking.

   The Deadly Storm allows for massive AoE attacks.

   The Berserker is a single target DPS specialist.

   So, say there was a group forming, and a Champion and I were vying for a spot. Let’s keep it hypothetical and call the Champion… Mandang 🙂

   Kaleigh: “I can do lots of damage to one foe at a time.”

   Mandang: “I can do lots of damage to many foes at the same time.”

   Kaleigh: “Well, okay, but when we get to the Boss, my single-target skills will be really useful. Scouts are single-target specialists, you know.” *nods triumphantly*

   Mandang: /spins into a Berserker… “So are Champions! Ba-da-bing!”

   Kaleigh: …

   Mandang: “Oh, by the way, if you can’t find a tank, I can do that, too.”

   Kaleigh: “I guess I will go do some stitching.”

   Then, on top of this, for Epic Battles:

   – Obviously, the hordes of foes we will be facing will be consistently more than ever before, but also…

   – The change from a Win/Lose condition to one of Merit, and the fact that the Epic Battles have daily locks will mean that those who form groups for them will be far more rigid on the makeup of the fellowship.

   As it is now, at least in 6-person instances, I can sometimes sweet-talk my way in if they are having trouble filling the group. But now, that is no longer going to happen. Since they can be done only once per day, there is no need to rush to do them over and over, and they will wait until they get classes that will better help the fellowship earn its rewards.

   So, needless to say, I have some grave concerns over what is to come.

   The other subject I would like to bring up is ‘flexibility’ and ability to hybridize in the coming system. Many believe that it offers much more customization and options than the current system. But it is my opinion that, between the conditions that have been termed non-negotiable by the Overlords, and the reasons stated for the coming changes, it will be all but impossible for the system to encourage anything but strict adherence to one’s chosen trait line, and that ‘encouragement’ will only strengthen, rather than weaken, as time goes on.

   Why?

   There are currently 7 tiers to our skill trees now. I am not entirely sure if it costs the same to reach the ‘capstone’ in every tree of every class, but it is close, I am sure.

   Here is what we know:

   The more powerful a skill or trait is, the further down its trait tree it is likely to be. This is pretty clear. Much of the back and forth in beta was the players trying to argue for traits and skills to be lower in the trees to help with hybridization.

   We will likely gain 5 trait points per expansion due to leveling, and likely 5 points or so from various other things, like we will in Helm’s Deep.

   So, where will these points go?
   i
   As it stands now, allocating points in your specialization allows you to choose Tier 7 traits at a 1:1 ratio, while choosing traits in the other trees comes at a 2 points per 1 rank ratio, even in Tier 1 of those trees.

   The next expansion comes along… will there be new skills/traits for our trees?

   There has to be, else one of the reasons for getting rid of the old system, “The feeling of no advancement”, will only happen again, right?

   So, as to new skills…can they make skills/traits for the lower parts of the trees? Not really, no. Because of the narrow focus of each specialization, the new skills will have to be better and add something to our classes or else…they would be “Skill Bloat”, yes? Ho-hum, redundant skills are the very definition of skill bloat.

   So…they will have to go at the top/bottom?, further down the tree 🙂 Now, it takes 5 points to reach the new tier of skills in a tree. Given your 10 points, you have two options:

   You can now spend 1:1 on a Tier 8 skill/trait or…
   You can spend 2 points for 1 rank in what is likely a Tier 1 or 2 trait of another tree, which will not have the backing, nor the harmony, nor the interworking that all the skills of your chosen specialization will have.

   This leaves 5 points per year to spend to spend in the other trees (assuming you have already filled your specialization tree or for some reason do not wish to). But with the 1:2 ratio of out of specialization costs, this means that it will take 2 years just to get a full rank in a non-specialization tree. At the most, just 1 skill every two years.

   The next year comes: Tier 9 traits/skills, which are sure to be more powerful than the last, and the trend continues. The points spent in your specialization will give you more and more bang as time goes on, and less and less in the other trees.
   i
   Given the current conditions, and without a change in either the out of spec costs or the number of points we earn each year, I cannot see how hybridization will be a viable choice for us, unless the Overlords add the very thing they pointed to as the cause for the change: either skill bloat or non-advancement.

   Two more things than I am done 🙂

   1. I think the effort put out by the developers for this system and the expansion overall has been epic. And I want to be very clear that I think Rockx’s efforts to make Scouts viable and the incredible effort he has made to listen and discuss and consider what we players have to say is absolutely amazing. He works so hard, and that is clearly seen. And, even though the other developers may not be quite so vocal with us, I think Pineleaf’s point is well taken, that they are hard at work trying to get things done. It is nice when they can be so available to us, but it is certainly understandable when they cannot be.

   They are trying, as hard as can be, within the limits that have been stated, to bring us the very best experience they can. There is no doubt in my mind of that, and I am very appreciative of that.

   2. I want to apologize, to the entire LOTRO Players staff, but in particular to Andang, for being such a negative Nancy these past few months. I am sure that, when you left that wonderful note at my journal about writing here, that you never considered how difficult I might be 🙂

   And neither did I, to be honest. Despite these things, I truly am a very positive person, and I doubt you could find many, if any, in these lands who would say otherwise. In all my years here, there are only three things I can think of that I have spoken out about:

   1. The destruction of the blogging community at MyLotro, and I think that one is understandable to anyone.
   2. The fading of Scouts as a viable class.
   3. These coming trait tree changes.

   Over half the posts I have ever made to the Overlords’ forums have been posting the tale I am retelling there. The rest are in threads of Poetry, Outfits and Landscape Screenshots. I never thought I would ever have cause to speak out so openly, or as critically, as I have these past few months, and it shames me that I have.

   But, at the same time, I feel like I have had to.

   I love these lands, dearly, as much as anyone, even those who are looking forward to these changes. You do not create an 800 rendering, 40,000 word tale for something you do not have passion for, and those numbers continue to climb 🙂

   I could never post things like this at the Overlords’ forum, for I would be immediately cast as a ‘complainer’ who ‘only dislikes change’ and that I am ‘doing everything I can to see these lands fail’, and what is left of my positive reputation would be all but lost.

   But, it really is not just about change. There is an awful lot of my playstyle that will be going away very, very soon, and it makes me very sad. I have tried to articulate very clearly, and by making point after point based on reason and fact, why that is.

   I will try to press on, however, and we will see what comes.

   Reply
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     Andang / November 11, 2013

     My not in-depth enough advice from this really in-depth comment.
     Find a group/kin/server that does like Burglars. When I was on Imladris there was actually a bias against champions. I couldn’t get into most groups and went through exactly what you described. What did I do? I created my own kin for grouping and for the next year I had a great time with people that became some of my best gaming friends.
     I realize it is not that easy though as simply starting a group as it takes a lot of work but there is always a transfer or something else. I would recommend trying the new server first though before you transfer. Mainly making sure there is a good kin/group to go to for the content you want to experience and that it is large enough to be unlikely to fall apart when you do transfer.

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       Kaleigh Starshine / November 11, 2013

       Thank you, Andang 🙂

       I appreciate your advice. A server transfer is just not in the cards I am afraid. All of the friends I have made over these four plus years are here, and I am a roleplayer, true and true, so Laurelin would be the only real option, and it is a European server so too far from my normal playtime.

       Landroval is pretty casual about raiding and endgame content, so this would be the place to be, I would think. Servers like Brandywine and others are far more serious and, therefore, would hold this ‘bias’ against Scouts even more strongly. I cannot imagine anyone ever having a bias against Champions. Even when they had the -30% Incoming Healing penalty in Fervour, I thought they were too powerful. But I guess we all value different things.

       It is pretty clear that the raider/endgame player type is the type most strongly against the coming changes. Many of this type have left already and more will now, so trying to find a group with what is left would not be easy.

       Finally, all these things merely treat the symptom and not the cause, unfortunately. I used to lead groups on adventures in the past. Partly why I do not anymore is due to how important success is to the persistence of such endeavors. There is little patience for failure, and most will not come back week after week with nothing to show for it.

       Thus, were I to lead, my first act would be to fetch my cousin, a Captain, to take my place. I just cannot, in good conscience, lead an endeavor when I know my very presence comprises its chance of success significantly. And joining a kinship merely would put that onto my kinmates, along with a sense of obligation for them to put up with it.

       But, I see what you are saying. I have considered those things for a while and will continue to do so.

       It may be time to go back to the Academy and take new classes…

       We will see 🙂

3. 

   Achazia / November 12, 2013

   Again. Thank you for a nice Podcast! also glad you liked my musical intro! 🙂 <3

   Reply
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     Andang / November 12, 2013

     Thanks!

     Reply
4. 

   Kaleigh Starshine / November 12, 2013

   A quick update for those worried about Captains:

   Just before the end of Beta, I sent my cousin, who is a Captain, to defend Helm’s Dike. It was her first experience whatsoever in the beta, so she had 85 trainings, no points in the Epic Battle trees, and no experience with the new system at all.

   I had her trait in the Red Line, save for a few points in…Blue, maybe? I cannot remember.

   In any case, she completed Helm’s Dike solo and just missed a Platinum medal by the skin of its teeth!

   So, for those concerned about Captains, be not afraid! The Red Line is very potent, and looking over the Healing line, I would say the same. I do not have much experience tanking with Captains, but we will see!

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5. 

   Sullo / November 13, 2013

   Great talk guys! And thanks for publishing my email. For those of us that enjoy LOTRO’s cosmetics (both wearable and housing), crafting, and other inventory hogs, this is going to be a change for sure. Players have been clamoring for more space, so it’s nice that Turbine is adding this feature, though the price is steep! (Perhaps those are just Beta prices?) I already have a deluxe house with two 30-slot chests, and I’d like more space, but I cannot see spending Mithril coins on it. I would imagine that this would make buying housing storage especially daunting for new players.

   5 Days until Helm’s Deep!

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     Andang / November 13, 2013

     Normally in the late part of Beta the prices are set but they can always be changed. Thanks for giving us a great email for discussion.

     Reply