If you have read my introductory post or have recently spoken with me about LOTRO, you’d know that I feel strongly about the notion that Turbine should remove all class/race restrictions.
Whenever these discussions come up, one of the arguments against it is always: “But, the LORE….”
This makes my beard curl. To be frank, this is the lamest excuse against class/race desegregation that can be used. Lore packed up its things and escaped through a window when they let my cousin Fenri start banging rocks together and playing at Darth Sidious.
There are even a few places where the the restrictions go against the lore. One of the most notable being Merry’s use of the Horn of Rohan to call hobbits to his aid at the Battle of Bywater. That sounds pretty darn Captainly to me!
Then you have the simple fact that because something wasn’t written, doesn’t mean that it can’t happen. The fine Professor never said that Haldir, Marchwarden of Lorien was able to re-enact a famous scene from 300 or even use Brad Pitt’s signature move from Troy – but here we are with all these little fur-foots running around kicking shrews in the face in the name of Hobbiton or jumping up in the air to shove a sword into a boar’s neck.
Why can’t these same hobbits fight as Champions? They already can learn a quasi-Florentine(dual wield) fighting style as a burglar (which I never recall Bilbo doing, I might add), and they also have been known to don heavy armor as Guardians. Maybe Hobbits are just incapable of learning to use two swords and heavy armor at the same time? I find that insulting and doubtful.
If a Dwarf, for some obtuse reason is unable to figure out how to hold a shield and a spear (don’t look at that Guardian over there) and yell a bunch (THIS IS EREBORRRRRRR!!!!!!), how can he really be deemed safe enough to play with lightning and fire? This is all while Bubba from Breeland over there can be trusted with flaming pinecones, controlling blood thirsty bears with his mind, and lightning; but only if he carries a big stick. If his method of controlling the weather is to draw pictures on some river rocks and yell weird words at people, he better grow some pointy ears or shrink and grow a beard.
Why can Bubba’s sister, who has no natural ability to move around with out being seen get to stealth past angry critters and pick people’s pockets when the naturally shifty (and unsavory, untrustworthy) Elves can’t? What about all that so called “greed” everyone always says the Dwarves posses? You can bet your sweet backside that some of them want to pick your pockets too, and surely could while your face is buried in a mug of Barliman’s Best.
The bottom line is a lot of these restrictions are in place because Turbine, not the lore, wanted them there. I think it’s time to drop the restrictions.
[/End Rant]
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With regards to Captains, my impression was that it was restricted to Man because in the story of Tolkien, with the possible rare exception, they are the only race to have been shown to lead others of different races. I mean, where do you see a Hobbit leading an Elf? Or a Dwarf leading a Man? Generally speaking, you don’t.
Champions are portrayed as having a sort of ‘joy’ in battle. They focus on attack, rather than the defensive Guardians. Again, this is something Hobbits by and large do not possess. However they will defend themselves when the need calls for it, hence their ability to play as Guardians.
Finally, a Warden’s thing is it’s agility in avoiding the blows of its enemies, and otherwise making sure they do not hit. A Dwarf is many things, but agile is not one of them.
Elves cannot be Burglars because the class is based on slight of hand, deceit and underhanded tactics. Here too, are traits not commonly shown in Elves, no matter what Dwarf historians might say. 😛
Same as with the Warden, Dwarves are continuously shown to not be agile or having any degree of subtlety of movement. Reading the Hobbit will tell you that much.
Evidently you don’t see these explanations as satisfactory when put next to the ‘lore-breaking classes’ such as LMs and Rune-Keepers, and that argument is very easy to see. But nevertheless I personally don’t see a problem with keeping the race restrictions as is.
Just an additional comment, you point being that these restrictions exist because of Turbine, not the Lore, I would actually say it is down to both. Whoever made the original decisions likely did not make them as an afterthought. I can’t see any other reason they would have considered other than their own perception of the Lore.
Captains: It was my understanding that Turbine wanted more Race of Man characters than Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits. The diminishing of those races and the coming age of men and all that.
Either way, Tolkien never states that only Men can blow a horn and rally troops to his side and lead them in battle.
Men captains lead men, elves elves and so on. You might recall Elrond being not only Gil-galad’s herald, but a Captain and commander of the Elven armies.
It comes right down to Turbine using a portion of the lore to restrict a class race combination.
Wardens: Dwarves can’t be a warden because of their lack of agility? Someone better tell my hunter he can’t be as agile he is! If this were true, this is Turbine putting an arbitrary restriction on something when they’ve allowed something contradictory to happen with Dwarf Hunters.
But the real reason as far as I can see were due to laziness and the Dev’s not wanting to work the warden animations with the dwarf model. (google it!)
Once again this leads me down the path that the lore argument when it comes to Dwarf Warden’s specifically is weak. Some might point out the official description of the warden indicating that they are tasked with protecting people from the “encroaching of fell creatures from the wild”, and that because dwarves “live in fortresses” and not towns, it doesn’t apply. That fortress thing and wild critters abilities to encroach upon them might be argued – but I’d also point out this “lore” behind the class is loosely based on one Lorien Marchwarden who was tasked with protecting his realm. It apparently allows for hobbits and men, but dwarves are right out! Again – due to the way Turbine put a restriction on things, not because the Professor said “Hey noobs only people who live in towns and villages may protect their bounds!”
You said it yourself “their own perception of the lore” is what allows them to put these restrictions in place. The lore doesn’t state they are no devious elves, you say it’s not common, but commonality doesn’t matter. It certainly wasn’t common for us to see so many hobbits running around in the fields of Rohan, but a concession was made for the sake of gameplay.
This is one of those areas where unless the lore states it CAN’T happen, it should be treated as possible.
Ethelros, Tolkein did give an example of Hobbits leading another race into battle when Merry and Pippin lead an army of Ents to fight at Isengard. It may not be as cut and dry as other examples of captains leading, but it’s there.
I think you’re remembering this wrong or are misinterpreting the events of the movie. Merry and Pippin were something of a catalyst for the March of the Ents, but they absolutely did not lead the Ents anywhere. After almost 3 days of hanging out with Quickbeam, the hobbits are called to, “Come, join the Moot!” for a ride to Isengard and are generally left alone during the battle. This is why Merry complains, later on, of feeling like nothing more than a bit of baggage.
I think some of the things Feanor did in the Silmarilian could be classified as deceitful and underhanded. Don’t kid yourself – elves can get down and dirty when they want to 🙂
Don’t kid yourself, among Elves actions like Feanor’s are so rare as to be negligible.
Your cousin is Fenri?? I know Fenri! How is he doing???? And why haven’t I seen him around in a long time?? Please tell him Lynxa/Nevanna said “Hi” 🙂
What did you do to make him angry? When I mentioned your name he set my pants on fire.
I don’t have strong feelings about the class/race restrictions. I just wish they would differentiate the races a little more, which would then provide a more customizable feel for your characters. Today, *all* the differentiation is done through classes, but it doesn’t have to be this way. For lore’s sake, they could even make it more advantageous for certain races to be certain classes, without completely restricting the player’s choice.
I don’t see why it couldn’t happen….
Hunter: Seemingly elves should make better hunters. They should get maybe a larger bonus to bow damage. A dwarf hunter maybe gets more morale for being a heartier race?
Basing ability on race/class combination would be a really amazing development. It would open up more variety in gameplay, though I’m sure it would be quite the headache for the developers!
Bring it on!
My Hobbit LM is ready and waiting…
And I know a kinnie who would roll a Hobbit champ as soon as it was made available.
btw did you know there’s a Dwarf Burglar in game? He’s in the goblin camp in Ered Luin just bofore Sarnur.
In our End-of-Codies moors event one of the GMs brought a Hobbit RK along, so at least some options are possible; although iirc Dwarfs use a different ‘model’ to the other races so Dwarf Captain etc would need designing.
Based on dev posts in the official forums that is one of the biggest things with dwarves not having access to certain classes, the additional work required to make the animations work for them.
I’m OK with this argument against lifting the restrictions, but I’d still debate against it. They could pull in a bunch of money from TP sales if they tied class unlocks to the store. I’d gladly buy 2000 TP for a dwarf warden unlock.
I approve of class restrictions for lore reasons, but I think that classes in general and the restrictions that go along with them have never really lived up to following the lore. I wish a lot of the aspects of classes that purport to tie the class into the lore would just be dropped at this point including race restrictions.
I would have a better feeling about the class/race restrictions if it were indeed DUE to the lore. But I don’t feel that it is. All the restrictions I believe are arbitrary and how Turbine wanted it, for whatever reason.
I agree. It sometimes feels as if they are using the lore as an excuse for doing certain things with classes, not really a cause. Which is why I’m in favor of ending the charade.
I wish they had restrictions on elves to limit the number per server. I know it will never happen but it would be cool. Anyway, I agree class restrictions have nothing to do with lore as they are currently set up but I do wish they would be limited in that way.
How about no elves at all?
Never restrict elves… never, never, NEVER!
Have fun 🙂
I agree with your point that not all of the class/race restrictions make sense, but I think that’s more of a reason to rethink those restrictions, not drop them entirely. To be up front about where I’m coming from, I’m definitely a player who’s here for the lore. I love this game, but if Turbine started breaking the “rules” rather than just bending them severely, I’d pack up and head to Guild Wars pretty quick. As it is, I’m still trying to reconcile some of their choices and just trying to forget some others.
Let’s ignore that my own solution to most of your examples is to get more restrictive and the fact that Middle-Earth Enterprises would probably step in if Turbine dropped all such restrictions like you’ve asked. LOTRO is still a compromise. Building an MMO in Middle-Earth almost has to be in order for the players to have any fun and I think us lore-buffs have accepted that. Delivering pies around the Shire is a fun distraction, but remaining true to the books would mean that’s the end of the journey for hobbit players. Except for the occasional adventurous Took or Brandybuck, of course, but even they would get no farther than the Prancing Pony.
The other side of that is that players have to accept some boundaries. Turbine deserves a lot of credit for finding a way to weave the story of each player around The Story and mining the source material for many of the skills. There’s certainly a lot of hand-waving necessary (and maybe some eye hiding and ear plugging), but if they dropped all attempts to stick to the lore, why even bother setting the game in Middle-Earth? Besides the obvious marketing tie-ins, that is.
For some of your specific points:
“Lore packed up its things and escaped through a window when they let my cousin Fenri start banging rocks together and playing at Darth Sidious.”
It would be nice if everyone had lore-appropriate names; however, not only is that too big a burden on players who aren’t well versed in the lore and languages, but is also too limiting when we only have a sampling of names from the various cultures. It’s hard enough as it is to find a flower or jewel name that isn’t taken/sounds stupid.
“It was my understanding that Turbine wanted more Race of Man characters than Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits. The diminishing of those races and the coming age of men and all that. Either way, Tolkien never states that only Men can blow a horn and rally troops to his side and lead them in battle.”
It’s ridiculous to restrict race/class combos in the hopes of seeing more of one race. If people are determined to play a dwarf, they’re just going to play a dwarf. However, I think you’re over-simplifing the Captain class and its basis in the books. Tolkien’s captains are less about directing battle than about using their leadership to inspire hope in their allies and fear in their enemies. In most races, such leaders are dying off. We can turn to the First Age to find Beleriand riddled with Elf Captains of the Noldor who inspired the Eglain and the Grey Elves to fight for their cause against Morgoth. However, Gil-galad was the last of these great leaders. It’s true that Elrond fought as Gil-galad’s herald, but he is respected for his knowledge and foresight rather his ability to hold people to his will in battle. Additionally, the unwillingness of the elves to do much more than guard their remaining realms is a rather key point in the Lord of the Rings. They have become a people of wanderers and recluses. They inspire no one, except in memory and song.
The dwarves, also, are losing more leaders than they are gaining. There’s Dain Ironfoot and then there’s, well, just him that I can think of. However, the lack of dwarf captains, I believe, can really be attributed to the secrecy and suspicion that exists between the dwarves and other free peoples. The alliance between the Lonely Mountain and the Lake Men has only recently been renewed and is the only example I can think of where we might find a dwarf leading another race at the time of the game.
Hobbits are an obvious exception since we have the clear examples not only of Pippin and Merry, but arguably of Pippin’s father who first rallied the Tooks against the Big Folk. However, you’ll also note that they were only leaders among hobbits and, in two cases, only *after* the war.
The kingdoms of Men, however, are on the rise. It makes sense for more leaders to rise among that race. The clearest examples of captains who inspire love and loyalty in the Lord of the Rings are all Men (see: Eomer’s presence on the Pelennor Fields, Theoden with Merry, Faramir with everyone but his father, Aragorn with everyone). They are the obvious heirs to the Captains of the Noldor, who again, are pretty much all dead.
“Wardens: Dwarves can’t be a warden because of their lack of agility?”
Is that seriously why? Cause, yeah, that’s dumb. I don’t care about character animations, that’s just dumb. There’s a lot I don’t know about this class, so I can’t say too much about it. Someday I will buy it and then I’ll have LOTS to say. As it is, the class has always made me think more of the Men of Ithilien than of Haldir.
“The lore doesn’t state they are no devious elves, you say it’s not common, but commonality doesn’t matter. It certainly wasn’t common for us to see so many hobbits running around in the fields of Rohan, but a concession was made for the sake of gameplay.”
It does matter, though. And that’s where we might just not see eye to eye. Concessions *must* be made for gameplay, but again, Turbine can’t just do whatever they want willy-nilly. If they aren’t going to make choices based on lore, they shouldn’t be making a game called Lord of the Rings Online. Yes, there technically shouldn’t be any hobbits in Rohan besides Merry and Pippin, but the big conceit of the game is that there was one other hero mixed up in all sorts of events that never got a write up in the Red Book and that hero is you. Or it is me. And sometimes that hero ran across some buddies who lent him or her a hand. There are some allowances that have to be made if the game is going to go anywhere. But lines have to be drawn.
When it comes to devious elves, for one thing, Feanor was not devious. It was the deviousness of Melkor that is at the root of the Silmarillion. Feanor was actually very straight forward and prideful and jerky. He was the most prideful elf who ever lived. Ever. He should not be an example for anything because he is not just unusual, but singular. No other elf like him has ever been born; just ask his mother. For examples of elven deviousness, I would look to Eol, the Dark Elf, or his son Maeglin.
“Why can Bubba’s sister, who has no natural ability to move around with out being seen get to stealth past angry critters and pick people’s pockets when the naturally shifty (and unsavory, untrustworthy) Elves can’t? What about all that so called “greed” everyone always says the Dwarves posses? You can bet your sweet backside that some of them want to pick your pockets too, and surely could while your face is buried in a mug of Barliman’s Best.”
To actually get to burglars, though, burgs use stealth and tricky tactics. Dwarves, as far as we can tell, are essentially incapable of stealth. Both the elves of Lorien and Bilbo frequently comment on how loud dwarves are. I would take another commenter’s point about the body of a “dwarf burglar” existing in the game as a poor choice of words on Turbine’s part, not an argument that dwarves are stealthy. Why can’t elves be burglars? I don’t know. That’s absolutely something that could be worth revisiting. Men make perfect sense, though. The Rangers are known for their stealth, as are the Men of Ithilien, who can melt into the forest before a hobbit’s eyes.
“The bottom line is a lot of these restrictions are in place because Turbine, not the lore, wanted them there. I think it’s time to drop the restrictions.”
That seems like a bit of a stretch. This is not Turbine’s intellectual property. They can’t do whatever they want. You don’t know what restrictions have been put on them by Middle-Earth Enterprises. Perhaps you’re right and Turbine puts what they want to do before the lore, but it’s rather difficult to make a case from the outside. Either way, I’m still going to argue that restrictions are important if they want LOTRO to feel like Middle-Earth and not every other fantasy MMO.
And if I could change a class restriction, I’d get rid of all lore-masters besides elves. That healer in Gondor doesn’t even know what athelas is good for! If I want a long list and no help whatsoever, I’ll ask for a human lore-master.
As I had stated above I would feel better about the segregation if it were indeed because of the lore.
But I don’t think it is. We know from discussions with devs on the forums that the Warden did NOT come to the Dwarf race because of the animations issue. http://www.lotrolife.com/warden_dev_corner/
How many other decisions were based on similar situations?
Again, I’d also point out that the lack of lore pointing to something doesn’t mean anything. The lack of lore is where Turbine has been able to shine and use their own creative license to make up stuff Tolkien never dreamed of. Unless the lore specifically states something can’t be done, I don’t see why the lack of should always be treated as a no-go rule.
“How many other decisions were based on similar situations?”
As I said above, I agree that excluding dwarves from the warden class because they need their own animations is dumb. In answer to your question, I’m sure Turbine makes compromises based on budget and gameplay all the time. I guess I don’t see where this argument really leads, however. You’re right, there isn’t a lore-based reason for this particular decision. Expanding that to say that all race/class restrictions should be dropped doesn’t really follow. We’re really just talking about one race that should be added to one class. Again, I don’t have a warden, so I can’t address the warden’s skills or where the class fits in the lore with any authority.
“Again, I’d also point out that the lack of lore pointing to something doesn’t mean anything.”
And I haven’t really argued that point, but considering the sheer volume of Tolkien’s writing on the history and people of Middle-Earth, the lack of something existing could be interpreted as meaningful. It doesn’t have to be, but it could be. However, there are many areas where the lore *isn’t* lacking, examples of which I gave above.
One point I was trying to make that probably got lost in my ramblings, and perhaps prompted the quoted statement above, is this: we know much about the characteristics of the races and about the state of the world LOTRO takes place in. Some of the examples I give above are possible exceptions to rules Tolkien has given us, but there are still rules that have been given. He’s the one who tells us that hobbits are adverse to adventure (except Tooks), that the elves are diminishing, that dwarves are secretive and generally shun the other races, and that men have greatly diminished in lore. He was not a man who was afraid to make definitive statements. Turbine has done their best to find exceptions to such rules where they can and expand on them.
You can only take a “lack of lore” so far, though. I can’t recall Tolkien ever writing that no one ever tamed a dragon, but considering they’re the evil monstrosities of Morgoth, having one fight for the free peoples would be lore-breaking. To do so would be completely inappropriate and out the spirit of the story.
To be clear, though, I agree that where lore is lacking, Turbine can do wonderful things. They are not, however, at liberty to throw the source material completely out the window.
I would love a Hobbit Cappy and Champ….But for me a Hobbit RK is just pushing it too far…
I find I don’t play those classes because they are not Hobbits.
Maybe when turbine need a bit more income we will be able to buy one from the store!
The Store is the keys to the kingdom here. Every decision they make since it’s implementation has been run through the Store filter before the Lore filter.
Which is why I am very hesitant to keep playing my toons who are not dwarves… I have a feeling that pretty soon, if they wish for LOTRO to remain relevant; some major incentives to keep playing are going to be needed. Allowing people to create new toons in race/class combos not previously allowed would be a big opportunity for a lot of folks to come back or remain in the game. They would be missing a big opportunity to make some cash by not doing this. With their track record tying all kinds of things to the TP store, it seems a no brainer to me.
Yes, why not destroy the game some more? And why not put in that you can buy yourself an eagle? So you can just fly trough the whole game. Then you don`t need to waste your time on exploring? At the same time can you put in heavy armor for Lore-Master`s so i can play the class. ^^ I bet they could maybe earn some from this to. But if you don’t want this game to turn into WoW nr.2, i hope they don’t. ^^
Eagles flying characters around is clearly a lore-break.
Class/race desegregation is not.
This discussion also has nothing to do with allowing Loremasters to wear heavy armor. That doesn’t make any sense.
Lore-master and minstrels wearing light armour isn’t an issue of the lore; that’s about game balance.
I only wanted a Hobbit captain like Merry, I still like exploring.. I don’t think that breaks the lore.
Back in the day, AD&D used to have class/race/level restrictions that seemed arbitrary and capricious. My DM and play group ignored them because they were an impediment to our enjoyment of the game. When D&D3 came out, they did away with the class/race restrictions in a way that made sense but also preserved the spirit of the game.
So you might see a dwarf wizard or halfling ranger, even though they would be rare. Just because hobbits aren’t likely to be leaders/captains, doesn’t mean they can’t.
I’d support a level-related race unlock like SWTOR’s where getting to level 50 (or 60 or 75 or whatever) with a hobbit or an elf opens that race up for all classes on your next alt.
I don’t see where opening up all classes to all races hurts the game, and if it adds a new wrinkle that keeps people interested, I say they should do it.
I would be in favor of that system as well.
They could include Dunedain Rangers a playable race/class… but they’d have to give them -25 to Wisdom.
A Certain Ranger: ‘I am the Heir of Isildur!’
Cursed Undead Guy: ‘You are not the Heir of Isildur.’
A Certain Ranger: ‘Aaaah!’ *dies*
🙂
too soon man too soon ;~;