Today Turbine has released a video talking about the major class changes coming with the Helm’s Deep expansion.
Much of the information given is already known to those of us who keep an ear to the grapevine, but we did get a good look at how the trait tree interface looks and functions, as well as a small look at the development tech for the game, something the previous landscape video also did. A brief series of bullet points for the info are as follows:
- Objectives with the class changes were to:
- Increase the excitement of moment-to-moment play
- Promote different builds for the same class
- Lower the number of skills but make each more impactful
- The new tree system will allegedly promote more character growth than our current system
- Trait points will be bestowed every other level, as well as from certain deeds and quests
- There are many new animations being created, and old ones with be fine-tuned
- You will be able to switch character builds on the fly, allowing you to adapt to whatever type of challenge you face
Of particular note in this video is the emphasis on making combat feel faster and more fluid. This involved cutting down the number of active skills, making the ones you have more potent, and speeding up animations. One such example is the Champion’s Ferocious Strikes, which currently has an animation time of around 3-3 1/2 seconds. With Helm’s Deep this has been reduced by about half, making the skill fire off more quickly and allowing you to run through skills at a swifter pace.
As I said, a lot of this has been stated already in previous dev diaries. Still, it is nice to get a more visual look at the vast changes coming with Helm’s Deep. What do you think?
NOTE: As mentioned in the description of the video itself, many of the icons shown in the trait trees are placeholders. Bear that in mind, if you please.
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Well, of the three points:
Increase the excitement of moment-to-moment play
Promote different builds for the same class
Lower the number of skills but make each more impactful
I think #1 and #2 could have been done without any changes to the class system whatsoever, and most certainly without ‘the biggest class revision since the inception of the game;.
#1 seems to largely deal with cutting down animation times for certain skills.
#2 Deals with making all the choices available to each build of each class equally attractive and viable, which is a necessity of all class systems, if you want to ‘promote’ different builds for the same class. This could have easily been done within the old system by balancing the possible trait choices. There is no question that there will be similarly unappealing choices within the new system. That is just the way things are.
3. ‘Halve’ the number of skills is a better description, I think. And I fear the only way skills are going to be more ‘impactful’ now is because, with so few skills, our fingers will be impacting only a few keys on our keyboards over and over 🙂
None of these reasons comes even remotely close to justifying the elimination of an entire playstyle that many came to enjoy here, one which will be sadly leaving us soon.
With both the pervasiveness and the persistence of the trend toward making content easier, it seems pretty clear that the root cause of this change was to further that trend, by making tackling the content easier as well.
Er, exactly what ‘playstyle’ is being eliminated with this revamp? Only thing I can think of is the ‘playstyle’ of being able to do everything at once.
And your conclusion is far from clear. By making more distinctive roles, you will likely be far squishier as a DPS Champ, for example, than they are currently on Live, since you won’t have all the survivability skills on hand. And vice versa, a tanking Champ won’t be able to DPS effectively like they can now. That would actually make the game *less* easy overall.
The playstyle that enjoying using a full kit of tools and skills, both for more engaging play, and to tackle content that challenges us.
This is a write-up I posted elsewhere in response to others asking why we felt more than 20 skills was good and necessary:
I am currently on an adventure of sorts, and crafting a pictorial journal about it. The latest entry involved the Stand at Amon Sul, which I attempted to solo but set the Size of the skirmish to Small Fellowship and the Tier to 3. You may read it on the forums (the last link in my signature, with really nice-sized renderings!), or where I keep my journal now (the first link, and choose ‘Stand at Amon Sul’ on the right-hand side). Sometimes, all the renderings do not seem to load at the forums, probably because they are so large and so many, but it could just be my looking-glass as well
Normally, landscape questing and even most of the instances are easy enough, if you work to become skilled at them and with your craft, that not many skills are really needed. But, when tackling something that is a much greater challenge, you have to look for any advantage you can get!
Here are the skills I used in this skirmish and the reasons why (I am just going to go down the list as ordered on my skills tab):
1. Trick: Dust in the Eyes – When traited, this affects up to 3 foes as once, which is very efficient for weakening foes, or to remove tricks from multiple foes for some benefit.
2. Mischief – A crowd-controlling stance that lets we Scouts basically keep one foe dazed constantly, more or less. Very useful when the Enemy’s Lieutenants appeared!
3. Clever Retort – When in Mischief, this gives a random boon, and both Healing and Power were very useful boons in this circumstance! Not something I would use everyday, but it has its uses in a pinch!
4. Trick: Enrage – This was vital to save Deverell, my poor, beleaguered herbalist, from getting swarmed by multitudes of foes, as we Scouts cannot deal with large crowds so easily, aggresion-wise.
5. Mischievous Delight – Self-healing and Self-power. Need I write more?
6. Trick: Improved Counter Defense – To aid in bringing foes down quicker, which was very important. Not only do Scouts only strike one foe at a time, save for rare exceptions, we also lose nearly half of our damage-dealing potential when the foe is facing us, which is a virtual guarantee when on our own. There were a few times that I could not bring down all the foes before the next wave appeared, so this was very helpful with that.
7. Advanced Startling Twist – Corruption remover and stun. Absolutely vital!
8. Trick: Improved Disable – Easily the best debuff we have against Melee foes, and those Lieutenants strike hard!
9. Surprise Strike – Our big damaging attack, when hidden by various means.
10. Cunning Attack – A way to bleed the foe. My stickers are crafted specifically to be sharp as can be in this regard!
11. Sneak – To hide between waves for a good strike at a foe before we are seen.
12. Diversion – To turn foes about so we can strike them from behind easier, and to delay a foe from reaching the battle for a moment. Every moment counts when the battle could go either way!
13. Trip – Even though I was alone and could not perform conjunctions, the ability to stun foes, if only for a few seconds, was absolutely vital to my success in this endeavor. It gives the ability to run behind the tripped foe to do extra damage while he is down as well.
14. Provoke – A low Power-costing strike that helps keep the foe attacking his current target. Not used often, but when my Power was getting low, it helped keep me going, as well as keeping the foes away from Candaith and Deverell…or to help keep them on them!
15. Location is Everything – To help do massive strikes now and then. Again, everything matters in tough times!
16. Improved Hide in Plain Sight – Aggresion-shedder, position facilitator, and so much more
17. Quiet Knife – The Scout’s damage-dealing stance. I would vary between this and Mischief, depending upon what was needed at the time.
18. Burglar’s Advantage – The start of our critical chain.
19. Aim – To critically strike the foe!
20. Exploit Opening – Again, not for the fellowship maneouver, but the stun! So vital!
21. Reveal Weakness – To do extra damage to the foe.
22. Double-Edged Strike – The middle of our critical chain.
23. Well-Placed Strike – With my stickers crafted to affect bleeding, I did use this a time or two, when a foe was attacking one of my allies. This is a much better skill when on the offense, of course.
24. Knives Out – The Scouts only AoE, save for Gambling. When swarmed by many foes, this was vital to keep Deverell from falling instantly to many attackers, and it is a most efficient attack, of course!
25. Flashing Blades – One of our critical chain enders. Big damage for little power!
26. Lucky Strike – The Gambler Capstone skill. Nonetheless, I used it when Improved Feint Attack was not at the ready, or if I wanted to save it for something coming.
27. Exposed Throat – Our other critical chain ender. Again, no conjunctions when alone, but the chance to stun a foe was worth the extra power cost of this skill, and to keep doing high damage, so we would not be overwhelmed!
28. A Small Snag – The Mischief-Maker capstone. The reason I brought up my journal and the entry about this skirmish is because, during the last battle, I found myself in a position where we were about to fall. I had no Riddles available, no Startling Twist, and all my conjunction starting skills were on cooldown, as was my Stun Dust and marbles. The fires were going out, and one skeleton was attacking me. And, due to the difficulty settings, there was no way to burn him down quickly. We were going to fall, until I thought to use A Small Snag, even though it is the Capstone for a trait line I never use and has a 5 minute cooldown. I pinned the skeleton by its foot, which freed me to relight the fires and save us all! That moment was magical, and I wrote about it in length in the entry
29. Improved Riddle – To daze Lieutenants!
30. Improved Subtle Stab – A low Power-costing strike!
31. Improved Confound – With how long it would take to strike down these foes, Confound was a life-saver many times over, dazing and debuffing our foes!
32. Improved Addle – A Scout’s Induction interrupter, it also lowers tactical damage from foes that attack with that type. It can also be used to speed up certain Scouting attacks, though I do not really care to do that, as I think it goes against the intent of the skill.
33. Touch and Go – A lifesaver! +50% Evade for 30 seconds!
34. Find Footing – A self-heal and +50% Evade for 30 seconds!
35. Ready and Able – This skill resets the cooldown on most of our skills, like the previous two, which have 5 minute cooldowns. Absolutely vital for difficult endeavors!
36. Burglar’s Antidote – To remove poisons, leaving my other draughts at the ready when needed!
There are a couple more Class skills useful in groups, which I will list below. I also used two Racial Skills:
37. Duty-Bound – For a boost to morale during the last battle!
38. Strength of Morale – For a one-time morale boost!
39. I should have thought to trait for Upper-cut, as a daze and interrupter as well, but I did not.
Class skills not listed here but useable while in groups!
40. Escape Clause – To reset Touch and Go, Aim, Location is Everything and all of the critical hit chain, when a successful fellowship maneouver is performed. Especially for Touch and Go, this skill is amazing!
41. Share the Fun – To sneak a friend past something. I would sneak my allies past those Scouts in Fil Gashan all the time!
So, I only used 38 skills, 36 class skills, but that is a lot closer to 40 than 20. Sadly, I think we will be losing a lot of our ability to react and make choices, both planned and on-the-fly, when the new changes come.
My traits (I will list them all, though you probably only meant the class ones
Virtues: Fidelity, Honour, Innocence, Tolerance, Zeal
Race: Basically the ones useful in battle
Class: 5 Red: Ambidextrous, Cunning Wound, Focused Eye, Hidden Danger, Strike from Shadows. 2 Yellow: Opportunist and Trickster.
Legendary: Exposed Throat, Flashing Blades, Practiced Bluff.
All skills have their use, I think. What I think is happening is that, because overland questing and even instances have become so easy, most of the defensive and crowd-controlling measures have lost much of their use. Those are usually the lines that many say are ‘underpowered’ these days, but that is due to context rather than being absolutely true, you know? The Overlords designed our classes when the world was much more dangerous than it is now.
But those skills still have use, when the need is dire and every action counts!
The Stand at Amon Sul I fought and wrote of is one of the highlights of my many years here. I will treasure that moment and experience forever.
Sadly, i do not think such moments will be had with the removal of so many skills, but we will see.
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This seems to be a debate that has no solution. Those of us who enjoy having and using a large amount of skills cannot understand why those who use fewer cannot see the issue we have with these changes. And those who use fewer cannot see what the big deal is to those who do, you know?
But, can you at least see, that the playstyle that some enjoy, regarding how we go about every single battle we will face from now on is being taken away?
Regarding homogenization of roles and such, this has been so blown out of proportion, it really puzzles me.
Quickly looking at content based on number of players:
Solo/Landscape content:
This content is obviously designed to be doable by any class traited any way, wouldn’t you agree? Homogenization with regards to solo content is pointless to worry about. What does it matter that a hunter uses a small self-heal when alone in the world, especially when everyone can tackle 5 or more foes from horseback at once without any effort at all? (And mounted combat, being designed from the ground up just a year ago is a good example of the difficulty with regard to content that the Overlords were intending)
3 Person Content:
This content was designed to be doable by most any 3-person team. Captains as either tanks or healers, maybe a Champion tanking and so on.
6 Person Content: I do not see many groups going into these without a true tank and healer, though some can be done without by really talented adventurers. I see groups offering 10gp for a tank to join them for 6-person adventures. Where is the homogenization?
12 Person Content: Obviously, no teams attempt these without true tanks and healers. So, again, I ask: Where is the homogenization that is blurring all the classes into one? I just do not see it.
And, if you notice in those examples, the more difficult the content becomes, the less ‘homogenization’ is an issue, because the *difficulty* requires adventurers more suited to their roles.
Increasing the difficulty of the content, as it was a few years ago, would have solved all of these issues with one, bold stroke.
The Overlords have decided to try to lure citizens over from other, more simplified lands, and that is fine. Make the content as easy as you want. But taking away the player’s ability to engage in that combat was neither wanted nor needed to do this.
Oh, I forgot to mention, regarding your Champion example:
In the trailer, the developer specifically says you should be traited in the Deadly Storm line for most of the skirmish, switching only to another line at the end. It would certainly make the most sense for the AoE Champion to be the squishiest of all the lines, since they have the most potential for devastation.
It seems they are meant to survive anyway, however. And since you can just switch between lines between combat anyway, what is the point of limiting choices, save to have fewer at any one given time? The only thing I see that this does is reduce our reactivity and lessen dynamic play.