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Great show again guys n gals
Thanks!
A wonderful discussion! Considering the long and thoughtful discussion about the development chat and the ’20’ questions and all, I would like to make some comments as I listen, and then afterwards maybe illustrate a few trends I have noticed.
– Dust in the Eyes
Dust in the Eyes, in my opinion, is an exceptional Scouting tool, when traited to affect 3 targets. It is a better debuff than Disable against ranged foes for one, but the biggest gain is efficiency. Inhibiting three foes at once is far more efficient than doing so to each individually, as that extra time saved frees us to do far more damage or whatever else during that time. I like that some can choose to use it and others not, though!
As an aside, this is why Fellowship Maneuvers are tools of the Enemy rather than tools of the Free Peoples currently. As they have not gained power like we have, the time spent idle while contributing to them, standing around while the creeps strike you, is wasted time, and everyone acting on their own can do far more damage, or healing, or whatever else than the little benefit the conjunction will now.
I was in a fellowship not long ago, where the leader insisted we perform our conjunctions, and he ordered a fancy one (I cannot remember the name, but it was not just a flush or an easy one). When we finally performed it, the initial strike was worth about 5,000 damage (Actually less, since bleeds and such were working during the 6 second pause). Most every free soldier can do that much damage with one blow these days, given a lucky strike, and certainly more over the time spent idle.
– “Many of the consumable items have turned into skills”
Sadly, if true, this is a direct removal of choice, both due to the items becoming useless, but also that these skills will count toward the 20 we are allowed to have, whereas they were simply extra options before.
– How many points available to spend in skill trees:
From Rockx’s clarification: “Or, I could choose to not invest **all** of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.”
So, it is pretty clear there will be few enough points that they could all be spent in one tree, with nothing for the others.
– Concerning the 20 skills:
For those who only wish to use around 20 skills, or who only remember 20 skills or what have you, that is, of course, as equally valid of a way to play as any other. But there are some who enjoy more complexity and depth, or however one wants to phrase it. Currently, the current system allows for both playstyles. One can choose to master every skill, or one can choose 5 or 10 or 20 to focus on, and both styles are available and valid.
I think the issue that is concerning people, and I will get more into this later, is that one style of play, the style with more choices and options, is being eliminated. We are being forced into the playstyle that uses only 20 skills. That is not as big a concern for those who play that way normally. But, to remove a playstyle that has already been developed, released, and added upon for six years now, is a pretty significant deal, both in the amount of development time now wasted in a sense, and in the elimination of choice and playstyles.
In my opinion, we do not ‘get’ to choose, or decide to choose which 20 skills fit our playstyle, as was stated during the conversation. Instead, we are being ‘forced’ to choose from a complete pool of skills that was always available freely to this point.
– As far as getting more skills with new expansions and with leveling versus right away:
I like getting them all as early as possible, so we have more time to work with them, and learn them, and appreciate them, is better. Why wait until tomorrow for something you can have today! 🙂
– Why, after level 50 with Legendary Traits, and Level 60 with the three traitlines, have there so few abilities, powers, and skills added in later levels (the end of character development)?
I have to strongly disagree that it is due to the system as it is today. 7 Class Traits, 3 Legendary Traits… those are not sacred numbered, set it stone, with no possibility of being increased. They could easily add new slots and new traits, which would give us more choice, more options and more ability to truly *develop* our characters. There is nothing preventing that at all…except development time.
This is a major point that I will get into later, but I think it is pretty clear that the main reason why we have not received more character development goodies since Moria, is that there simply has not been as much time spent working on them.
– “There is so much that is going to have to be changed with this”, “a lot of testing”, Reworking Legendary Items (A lot of work to do), “Working up 3 classes for each one class, where they all do the same at the same thing level range”, and so on (referring to the class and skill changes):
This was an excellent rundown on some of what is going to be needed to enact these changes, I thought. It is going to be a lot of work, and a lot of…development time. Considering all the new things that could have been done instead with this time, instead of what will basically be a neutral gain, since we have working classes now, and we should afterwards as well after this: was this, and is this, the wisest use of development time? More on this later!
LM’s Blue Line, Hunter’s Yellow Line, Weak lines:
I think the lines that are deemed no good, or that have little or no use, are the lines that deal with crowd control, defensive measures, and utility. Why are they no longer useful? Because the best version of crowd-control is death! 🙂 Because things have become *much* more easy over time, we no longer need such measured to succeed. We are more powerful now, relative to our foes, than we have ever been. This has been a trend for a long while now, and is likely to be furthered as time marches on. More on this later!
The community’s reaction, “Change”, “Playing the same game”, don’t like the game changing, “Wait and See”, and the Warhorse trait trees:
Sadly, it is simply a fact that there will always be detractors to anything, just like there will always be apologists for everything. And it is absolutely true that we know little about the coming system, even with this chat and discussion.
However, it is equally as true that the reason the Overlords give these discussions is both to give us information, and (I hope!) to get feedback from us. And, the earlier in the development cycle we give them this feedback, the more likely it will be to help guide the development process and bring about changes that might be needed. So, I do believe there is, and should be, room for well-intentioned thoughts and appraisals and even criticisms at this point, if they are done in the right way, and with the right intent.
As far as the points about Change, it is very true that many simply do not like change in any fashion. I think those that have invested more into learning and mastering their characters as they stand today are more likely to feel this way, and understandably so.
But even more than that, from what I have read on the forums is not a reaction to Change, in and of itself, but rather the Change in Scope that is coming, that being a reduction in Choice, in the ability to differentiate and develop our characters.
If the Change was adding new abilities, and traits, and powers instead, I think you would have seen a completely different reaction. Change is good. Change is wonderful! Change that inhibits us will always be resisted.
Say that, as you were driving to work one morning, you discovered that half of the streets in your area no longer existed. That change would force upon you a new way of going about things, and with less choice to do so. I cannot think of anyone who would prefer that over the old way.
Say there were less options for fruits and vegetables at the Farmers’ Market, or your favorite clothing store got rid of half its inventory. Reducing choice, assuming the choices removed are worth something, will always frustrate people, unless they do not like to make choices.
This is *particularly* so when you have had a level of choice for a long period of time, only to have it taken away from you. It would be like allowing your 13 year old child to go wherever he wishes within 5 miles of home and having an 8:00pm curfew until he turned 18, and then restricting him to 1 mile of freedom and a 6:00pm curfew. There is simply no way changes of that nature will be looked upon favorably.
And, with the information we have been given, there is simply no way to take from it that this will not occurring.
This goes along with the Playing the Same Game issue. I would love for there to be changes, if they add scope and depth and choice. I know many dislike the Legendary Items, but I love them, simply because they are an added way in which we can make choices and customize and differentiate ourselves. I loved the change of adding three trait lines for the same reason. I love that they added skirmishes.
I am not so fond of learning that half of my skills will no longer be available freely. So, again, I think that is where the angst is coming from: Not change in itself, but rather apparent change that is limiting.
Okay! So, I think you all touched upon some very important things, and the themes that deal with them. There are three trends, trends that have been occurring for years now, that I see as relevant, and I think they can help us see the future as to what is likely to come about.
1. Things have become easier over time and this is likely to continue.
Just this morning, my cousin, who is a Captain, ventured to Iserngraf, one of the Crafting instances in Hytbold, in order to fetch a compendium for our crafting later. This is the mining cave, where one can look for ore, if you do not know it by name 🙂
What she does is simply make a bee-line down to the bottom of the cavern, to the leader of the foes within the caves. She ignores the foes she runs past, and lets them follow her down to the end of the cavern, where she fights the evil Boss and the 15-20 other foes all at once. And she downs them with no issue whatsoever, unless there are Easterlings in the cave, and then it gets a bit more difficult.
For those that ventured into Moria when it was new, and we were of the same level of the foes… could you ever dream of doing such a thing? Of course not. Simply wandering about in Khazad-dum and getting the attention of one extra goblin, or orc, could be doom back then.
There has been a significant trend toward making our way easier in these lands for a long while now. Most creatures can easily be dealt with simply with our auto-attacks. The dangers of roaming overland have all but vanished.
Why is this? It is my opinion that the reason for this is two-fold. One is that the Overlords wish to make more of the content of these lands accessible to more of the people who dwell here. Secondly, and a corollary to the first point, is that they wish to lessen the range of potency between the best and most skilled of the free-folk and those who are not as adept, for whatever reason.
One way to decrease the range of potency amongst the free-folk is by reducing the amount of skills they bring into battle.
Tic-tac-toe, Checkers, Chess:
One can master Tic-Tac-Toe by the age of 8 or so and, even playing against the best players in the world, can stalemate them each and every time. The ability to differentiate is virtually non-existent.
There is certainly more skill involved in playing checkers, but those who work to be better at it are very close in skill.
I had to have someone who plays Chess explain this to me, but there are ratings amongst the players. From what I understand, the average tournament player has a rating of 1400 or so. The best players in the world can have ratings of 2800 or more.
If one player has a rating of 1600, and the other a rating of 1400, the one with the 1600 rating should win 90% of the time. The player with 1400 has a 1 in 10 chance of winning. That is true over the entire range. A 200 point difference means a 90% chance of winning.
So, ignoring those with no clue (like me!), and just dealing with tournament-level players: Someone with a 1400 rating has a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of winning a game from the one with a 2800 rating. Now, they each have the same pieces, and play under the same rules, as the other.
It is simply the amount of choices one has, and what they do with them, that makes the difference. There are far more choices in checkers than tic-tac-toe, and there are far more choices in chess than checkers.
I believe the reduction of skills is a continuation of this trend, and the main reason for it.
2. The reduction of content in expansions as time has passed.
To me, it makes sense that, as far as expansions go, most development time should be spent on content that is either for the ‘end-game’, since that is where our characters will spend most of their time, at the level cap, or for content that can be experienced and enjoyed regardless of level: Housing, music, scalable instances, and so on.
– Moria was a ‘Wow!’ expansion:
10 new levels
A new Volume of Epic Quests with 6 Books
2 New Classes (Warden and Runekeeper)
Environment-aware AI
Dynamic Lighting
The Introduction of the Legendary Item system
Each class gained new skills (with the changes to when skills are learned, it is hard to remember how many, but it was more than any of the later expansions, certainly)
There were 12 new areas (regions) to explore
8 6-person instances
3 Raids, including one full-sized raid.
– Next was Siege of Mirkwood. This was not a full expansion, but it did:
Add 5 levels
Introduce the Skirmish system, adding at least a dozen skirmishes. I do not remember how many exactly
Finished Volume 2 of the Epics and begsn Volume 3
3 3-person instances
1 6-person instance
and 1 full-sized raid (Since, one of the 3-person instances has been changed to a 6-person instance)
– After came Rise of Isengard, which introduced:
10 new levels
A new crafting tier
3 Books to the Volume 3 Epics
3 3-person instances
1 6-person instance
1 full raid with 5 wings
Then Riders of Rohan:
10 new levels
6 new areas
Mounted Combat
3 3-person instances
1 6-person instance
3 Small, stand-alone raids.
For Helm’s Deep, we know there will be:
Big Battles – which seem like they will be solo-skirmishes in a group setting.
No new instances.
10 levels.
Major class revisions.
It can be debated what content is, and what it is not. For what I consider content to be, there has been less and less with each expansion, for the most part, even though the prices of the expansions have climbed.
Now, most have not addressed this, but as far as my unease regarding these things, what I see is a *lot* of development time spent on a lateral change, that being reworking the classes. In addition to this, they are being reworked so that our choices are being reduced, and a lot of development time spent in the past is being tossed away.
My concern is, especially with all the development time being spend on this, how much conent is there really going to be in this expansion?
Remember the conversation I spoke of above, where you all spoke of all the things that will need to be changed, and reworked, and refit into the new system? That is all time not spent on adding content, and I have to say that I question both the wisdom of that choice, and whether there will be enough time spent to bring us an expansion that makes us say “Wow!”
I am hopeful! At the same time, I think that there are valid concerns, and I think it is as much our duty as it is our privilege to voice such concerns, if they are honest and well-reasoned, so that they may be considered and may lead to something better for everyone.
Having said that, there comes a point where it is time to let things be, and this area will be the last place I voice my concerns, save for any conversation we wish to have here! I do not dare voice these concerns over at the Overlords’ forums, for fear of being labeled a Negative Nancy. I am very hesitant to do so here, even.
But I just wanted to give my opinion for some of the angst that there is about, and why some have them.
Theme 3… I seem to have forgotten over all this time. Class is dismissed! Enjoy your summer! 🙂
There’s really too much said here to address completely, so I’ll just pick out the things that troubled me the most.
Firstly, your notion that these class revamps can only be a neutral change at best, and negative at worst. You’ve already made it clear you don’t like the idea of them, and that’s fine on it’s own, but arguing that there is no way we could come out better on the other side is taking it a bit too far, IMO.
Second, your summary of the content in the expansions is a little suspect, I think. Notably you state that Moria had ’12 new areas’ compared to East Rohan’s ‘6 new areas’. This is misleading information, as the raw landmass for these two expansions is roughly the same(and East Rohan has many more quests, at least before the Moria revamp). How the landmass is divided is quite irrelevant when determining quantity.
You also make a note of upgrades like dynamic lighting and improved AI for Moria, but make no mention of the improved lighting effect for areas in Rohan(mostly in Fangorn) or the responsive foliage effects(they move when you walk through them) or the numerous graphical upgrades evident in that region.
Granted Moria has the edge in adding two new classes, but other than that and the lower number of traditional group content in later expansions there isn’t a whole lot between them.
At this point I know we aren’t going to see eye to eye on this, but those two points were really my only major gripes with what you said.
I think it is way too early to tell if this is a better system or worse. Also it is WAY to early to start comparing expansions. We don’t know price, content or anything really about Helm’s Deep aside from there will be “Big Battles” and class changes. The maps are not even confirmed yet. If we compare all of that to when we knew almost nothing about other expansions, it is basically the same.
I am sorry about being unclear with some of those. It was a lot of writing, and I did not proofread it as well as I should have.
My point with the classes changes being at best a neutral change was in the context of content. Even if they are better, as far as the amount of content, there is not much of a difference.
My point with all the development time used to do it was that, in order for it do be worth all that time, the changes have to be better than what we have now. I think most everyone would agree with that. For me, they would have to be significantly better. Removing choice, and that choice is being removed is very clear, means that everything else will have to be that much better for the overall change to be worth it.
My summaries of the content were basically copying from wikipedia, and I apologize for anything that was not included within them that was added with those later expansions. I should not have put those things in really. The fact that Moria added *so* much, and that Mirkwood added Skirmishes stands on its own, really. At least as far as content goes.
I agree that they need to be much better. Keep in mind though that they are turning one class into three. That is a lot more option to, before entering combat, be able to choose which powerful class path to take. Keep in mind they aim to make all three trees viable now. That adds a lot of diversity. This is especially true since they will be adding several skills to make each tree feel complete.
I would argue Rohan added a lot. Isengard didn’t but Rohan added mounted combat. Helm’s Deep is adding “Big Battles”.
Thanks for the feedback!
I could not reply to your comment above in that spot!
I know that it is too early to compare expansions, but I also feel that there are trends that can be seen that are occurring. And, if there is ever a time when we can influence how things end up occurring, it is now, before all the work has been done.
That was all I was trying to accomplish!
Agreed but I think with “Big Battles” alone, there is a ton of content coming with HD.
With regard to the names on the map, it s clearly STONEDEANS.
Yes, my stupidity in this regard has been duly noted.